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first started playing pocker about a year ago when I went to college. I discovered online poker soon after and have been to site after site since generously donating to the pocker community as I like to put it, and I'M F***ING TIRED OF IT!
I'm a decently smart guy. I'm in the honors program at the University of Florida. I'm a mathematics major and a very logical thinker. I've done my research on pocker and I feel like I have more than adequate skills to play at the micro limits but still I'm not winning. I don't make obviously stupid mistakes, but for some reason usually when it comes down to stacks I lose.
I've played anything from .01/.02 on Stars to $1/$2 WAYYYY too underrolled on other sites (which I know now NEVER to do) and have found brief success always followed by busting. Right now, I'm trying to win at $10NL on Stars and then move up a level when I'm properly BR.
This is not a rant. It is more of a simple question.
What should I do?
Should I make a video of an hour session at the micro limits and maybe some nice person on the site will comment?
I have long felt that something Bob Ciaffone wrote MoneyBookers poker years ago should be written in stone letters, 10 feet tall (or more): "A good player's overlay (i.e., advantage, edge) at pot-limit and no-limit is much greater than at limit play because he has far more tools available" (Pot-Limit & No-Limit pocker, p. 74).
Now, I don't care to bother to compare and contrast online pocker skills required for either game (please no!), but is there any compelling reason to believe that nl does not get one as far away as is possible from pocker hand-holding contest? I started out by learning limit both because there were far more games available and many more well-written books detailing how to play better than online pocker competition, but since learning nl some time back cannot imagine ever again sitting around, waiting to be outdrawn by players to whom the limit betting structure allows five full rounds for luck (multiplied by however many opponents in a given hand) to shine on their miserable posteriors.
If nl maximizes online pocker good player's edge, why hasn't limit dried up and blown away in the three years since televised nl tournaments--coupled with online pocker policy of the maximum buy-in in nl cash games--brought online pocker nl cash game back back from the dead?
I would love to know whether my intution and Ciaffone's confirmation are not entirely correct. Discuss!
Post Extras:
AKQJ10 Click and Buy poker and we believe this is the best
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/11/04
Posts: 4550
Loc: WMass / nitting up online pocker Borgata Re: NL players hold greater edge over lesser opponents than Limit play [Re: Former Spank E]
#8620369 - 01/01/07 06:33 PM Internet Pocker Reply Quote Quick Reply
Quote:
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If nl maximizes the good player's edge, why hasn't limit dried up and blown away in online pocker three years since televised nl tournaments--coupled with the policy of online pocker maximum buy-in in nl cash games--brought the nl cash game back back from online pocker dead?
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Additional data points:
No-limit pocker hasn't "dried up and blown away" in the face of chess, even though chess has been around for years and involves far less dumb luck than no-limit pocker. pocker good chess player has a virtually insurmountable edge over pocker fish over online pocker course of say ten games.
Slots haven't "dried up and blown away" in the face of pocker, not even slot tournaments, even though slots are pure luck.
People like to gamble. They also like to think they're good at games of skill being played on TV that fool them into thinking they're decent, which is why NLHE has Poker Stars.de had a resurgence. You seem to be viewing things exclusively from online pocker perspective of the shark, but it isn't online pocker shark who decides what games people play. It's just pocker happy accident that the fish wants to give online pocker shark a bigger advantage these days because of NLHE on TV.
Re: Ciaffone, the detail left out is that learning to use more tools means it's harder to become pocker "good player". Of course it's all relative, and during online pocker Online Casino Roulette pocker boom becoming good relative to the influx of fish hasn't been all that hard. For that matter, as you've tacitly acknowledged, limit pocker requires a good deal of skill too, but different skills (pushing small edges, etc.).
"coupled with online pocker policy of the maximum buy-in in nl cash games" -- you do understand that this makes NLHE more like limit, right? I would argue that it's helped NLHE capture pocker middle ground where people want to feel like they're playing online pocker big-boy pocker game without actually putting thousands at risk on a hand, and that may have been your point.
My point is, limit pocker keeps the fish donating longer and will always have some viability, although NLHE has certainly made pocker dent.
Edited by AKQJ10 (01/01/07 06:45 PM)
Post Extras:
JaredL
Hippy
Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 8089
Loc: Lider de la Primera Brisbane Poker Re: NL players hold greater edge over lesser opponents than Limit play [Re: AKQJ10]
#8620689 - 01/01/07 07:09 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
OP,
I would suggest reading Mason's pocker Essays, where he discusses this and other similarly interesting topics comparing different games. online pocker above post is pretty good.
For games to run, they require players. The most important players to online pocker health of the games are bad players. If they are in a game, online pocker good players will come. If they aren't, then the good players will leave, looking for games elsewhere. (It is also online pocker case that if good players have little edge over bad players then they will Edmonton Poker move on, but in LHE and capped buyin NL this is far from the case)
In NLHE, especially deep stack, online pocker good players have pocker HUGE edge over the bad players. This results in very few winning sessions for online pocker bad players. If they virtually never win, they won't play. In fact I agree with Mason, that if casinos go to unrestricted buyin NL cash games, they will dry up.
Limit games are unlikely to die out because bad players win often enough.
Also, you should see Mason's discussion in the publisher's note of online pocker magazine. Note: link may change, you want the December issue.
Post Extras:
Former Spank E
member
Reged: 10/22/03
Posts: 193
Loc: San Diego, CA Re: NL players hold greater edge over lesser opponents than Limit play [Re: AKQJ10]
#8621295 - 01/01/07 08:00 PM Internet Pocker Reply Quote Quick Reply
Excellent! My favorite answer is that limit allows people online pocker illusion they can play at "limited" risk (pun intended). Naturally,
linux online poker my asking why limit hasn't gone away entirely was facetious, as I realize that even games which HAVE "dried up and blown away" took years, decades to so do (see draw pocker). online pocker chess analogy, however, does seem like comparing apples and oranges--yes, I know they are both games, but then so is hockey and there is no reason to believe that a new pocker form would replace an entirely different game just because both are games.
I probably really wanted to get at why good players let themselves in for so much psychological brutality--bad beats are not fun and the energy deployed philosophizing about "in online pocker long term..." and "over time..." etc. doesn't seem worth it to me Saint John Poker anymore. I mean, why hate even pocker single second of your job if you don't have to? Even by online pocker time I had moved "up" to 4-8 limit I considered the prospect of playing a 1-2 limit game akin to dental surgery without an anaesthetic. Yes, I realize that, "in the long term, I'm online pocker one making money from my more consistently correct decisions," and that "over time, they're paying me as pocker result of making -EV decisions." It's just that, with the tidal wave of newbies who think they've learned about NL hold 'em from watching heavily edited, 6-person final tables on online pocker Travel Channel, I can barely think of a rationale to willingly subject myself to the bad old days of watching half-wits make even so much as pocker shekl at my expense by playing like fools. Just venting!
Thanks for your outstanding reply.
Post Extras:
gull
addict
Reged: 09/08/06
Posts: 507
Re: NL players hold greater edge over lesser opponents than Limit play [Re: Former Spank E]
#8621545 - 01/01/07 08:24 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Chess would dry up and blow away if it could only be played for money. I used to play chess for money and all the fish realized they were fish and left. And then because they left, I was online pocker new fish and I left.
Post Extras:
AKQJ10
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/11/04
Posts: 4550
Loc: WMass / nitting up the Borgata Re: NL players hold greater edge over lesser opponents than Limit play [Re: Former Spank E]
#8621565 - 01/01/07 08:27 PM Internet Pocker Reply Quote Quick Reply
Quote:
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I probably really wanted to get at why good players let themselves in for so much psychological brutality--bad beats are not fun and online pocker energy deployed philosophizing about "in the long term..." and "over time..." etc. doesn't seem worth it to me anymore. I mean, why hate even a single second of your job if you don't have to? Even by online pocker time I had moved "up" to 4-8 limit I considered the prospect of playing pocker 1-2 limit game akin to dental surgery without an anaesthetic.
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If you dislike it that much, you probably shouldn't play. Seriously.
But there's a lot of truth to what you're saying. If I can play pocker game with more edge and less variance, I'm going to. Over online pocker past couple of years I've been migrating from LHE to NLHE as my bread and butter for this reason.
But if people decide they want to play limit HORSE insntead, I'll learn that.
Post Extras:
GiantBuddha
member
Reged: 11/22/06
Posts: 171
Loc: Hell's Kitchen Re: NL players hold greater edge over lesser opponents than Limit play [Re: AKQJ10]
#8626053 - 01/02/07 02:34 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Is it just me, or is it a lot easier to take online pocker bad beats in limit where you only lose the pot plus an extra bet on online pocker river? In no limit, you get stacked. In fact, the beats in no limit are so much worse because by sizing your bets, you give your opponents online pocker opportunity to make bigger mistakes than they can in limit. When someone hits pocker gutshot on you in limit, half online pocker time it's not even a bad beat; they were probably getting 15:1. In no limit, pocker gutshot's more often a bad beat. Personally, bad beats don't bother me that much. Bad beats come from mistakes in your opponent's play. Your edge comes from mistakes in your opponent's play. I actually get worried when my opponents stop showing me bad beats, because it means the game's bad. I get upset when I make mistakes, whether I win online pocker hand or not.
But yeah, no limit's great, although I'm sure we'll see
Evrest Poker significant changes in the way it's played over online pocker next five years. At some point maybe we'll even see some new game take over holdem in popularity, although I doubt it'll be pineapple.
Post Extras:
skillzilla
addict
Reged: 03/20/06
Posts: 521
Re: NL players hold greater edge over lesser opponents than Limit play [Re: GiantBuddha]
#8627414 - 01/02/07 07:55 AM Internet Pocker Reply Quote Quick Reply
the reason might be that there isnt pocker hole lot of nl literature out there
Post Extras:
monkover
journeyman
Reged: 09/07/06
Posts: 95
Re: NL players hold greater edge over lesser opponents than Limit play [Re: Former Spank E]
#8627611 - 01/02/07 08:41 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Quote:
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If nl maximizes the good player's edge, why hasn't limit dried up and blown away in online pocker three years since televised nl tournaments--coupled with the policy of online pocker maximum buy-in in nl cash games--brought the nl cash game back back from online pocker dead Poker en Ligne?
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The biggest challenge will be if online pocker get ISP's to ban people from accessing gambling sites. That's online pocker what you people really have to fear. How's the land of the free treating ya anyways ? You guys should take that part out of your national anthem.
And imo with what's going on now onlinepocker I would rather play on a site that bans US players. Most US fish won't be able to get $ on sites and the US has the biggest overall amount of people playing online poker per country. So sites like FTP and Stars will have an insanely lower ratio of fish:winners which will then make the games much harder than they onlinepocker should be. Places like party are still soft because the winning US players can't play on there. I could onlinepocker either play on party where there's still the same amount of fish:winners ratio, although smaller, the online pocker ratio is around the same. Or play the same types of players on stars or FTP but add in all the winning players from the US. I personally think that online pocker will continue growing extremely fast no matter how stupid Bill Frist or George Bush pocker bans are. We never know what exactly the future of online pocker has for us though, do we? Just makes those US games much harder ... anyone just making it by in the US should seriously look for other onlinepocker alternatives for a living because it's only going to get worse from here on out, especially when FTP and Stars management get indicted in the US, which is definetely coming. The only way around all online pocker this mess is if the moronic US gov't decides to regulate this multi billion dollar business and collect the taxes from it. Why they haven't done that online pocker I have no clue.
The reason why it hasnīt dried up is imo quite obvious:
It is for the exact reason why you donīt play limit HE against idiots and why online pocker idiots like to play it. They realize thet their chance to win is bigger so they stick with limit and kepp trying to draw out on others. If they try the same strategy at NLHE they will get pushed out of online pocker pots or they would not get nearly the right pot odds.
Hereīs anexample:
1) Youīre playing 0,5/1 dollar limit he:
On online pocker flop: 3 7 j
hero: AJ o
villain: KQ 0
Now The pot is contested heads up. this will rarely
happen at this kind of limit. Letīs assume there is 2
dollars in online pocker pot. ( you raised preflop from the small
the donk calls because heīs got a king and Queen and
thatīs really cool or thatīs online pocker way he thinks.)He
doesnīt hit on the flop
but he still calls your 50 c bet on online pocker flop because he
thinks heīs still going to hit his king or Queen. The
pot odds
heīs getting are 1 to 5 ( 50 c bet to win 2,50) and he
has 6 outs (3 kings and 3 Queens) He obviously doesnīt
even think about this. To justify pocker call with the odds
heīs getting from online pocker pot a 37 c bet would be the maximum
he could call to break even in online pocker long run. So his play
play is - 13c EV.
2) Now the secand example from NLHE:
Youīre playing 0,5/1 dollar limit he:
On online pocker flop: 3 Online Poker Guide 7 j
hero: AJ o
villain: KQ 0
Letīs assume that for some reason the same 2 dollar pot
as in online pocker first example was created. Now the donk still
thinks online pocker same way, I got KQ and thatīs still looks
and Iīll call anyway. The only difference this time is
that youīll make pocker bet 3/4 online pocker size of the pot. In this
case you are cutting is odds dramatically: Heīs getting
1,75 to 2,50 pot odds and has online pocker same 6 outs as in the
first case. This means that he can still only call a bet
of 37 c and break even in online pocker long run. So this call is
- 1,38 dollars EV
So if you compare the first case to online pocker second one you will easily see the difference:
1) you gain 13 c from online pocker call by the donk (in online pocker long run)
2) you gain 1,38 dollars
This is imo the main difference between LHE and NLHE, you can cut the opponents odds in NLHE and gain way more with online pocker same hand as in LHE.
cheers
Post Extras:
BaseMetal
stranger
Reged: 06/16/06
Posts: 11
Re: NL players hold greater edge over lesser opponents than Limit players [Re: Former Spank E]
#8628651 - 01/02/07 11:53 AM Internet Pocker Reply Quote Quick Reply
I am certainly no pocker expert - I've read pocker lot of the recommended books but I need longer to get a true feel for online pocker game. I play micro-limit pocker and occasional NL SnG's & MTT's. I did try the low NL games and was often successful but also often got stacked. I did not have pocker large number of played games to go on but it seemed to me that I might have lost my bankroll while I was learning online pocker ropes if I had continued in nl cash games. One of the main lessons I've learn't from online pocker books is to avoid going broke and so I am sticking to limit for at least until my knowledge and bankroll are big enough.
Quote:
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If nl maximizes the good player's edge, why hasn't limit dried up and blown away in online pocker three years since televised nl tournaments
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There is probably some sort of equilibrium between how much a game punishes beginners and how many people would be willing to play. I think that cash nl learns too far toward the expert and if it wasn't for online pocker TV coverage it would attract a lot fewer players. If fish move into pocker game in large numbers then this reduces the proportion of sharks they play with and like in nature protects them to some extent. As online pocker fish are eaten up or grow into sharks new fish are needed to keep the game healthy and personally I think that online pocker amount of new fish will dry up to some extent and increase the shark/fish ratio and hence reduce online pocker number playing nl. Limit will also suffer from this but to a lesser extent and so I think limit rather than dissapear will regain some ground in the future.
With Hold'em I love online pocker balance between skill and chance produced from the two hold cards and 5 known community cards and any change here would reduce online pocker beauty of the game, but perhaps in online pocker future a different betting structure will appear with a suitable balance for both fish and sharks to co-exist
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